WBUR's Simón Rios speaks with two former immigration judges — Art Arthur, a fellow in law and policy at The Center for Immigration Studies; and George Pappas, the principal owner of Pappas Legal, PLLC representing clients in Western North Carolina and nationwide in U.S. immigration law — about recent shifts in immigration policy, and whether we’re witnessing lawlessness or a controversial interpretation and enforcement of existing laws. This conversation was a part of The WBUR Festival (2026), where thousands of attendees descend on Boston each year to hear movers, makers, and other fascinating people in conversation with each other and with WBUR.